A fact is more impersonal.

Is not absolute truth impersonal?

What is absolute truth? If it were absolute and impersonal, it would be more likely considered a fact. 
Even facts can be wrong. 
You know.. that planet that now isn't a planet... lol

Q.E.D! Consider reality, whatever that is, as opposed to our internal preception and limited awareness of it. Fact accurately represents the concepts and attributes of absolute reality and I would argue that facts cannot be wrong by definition (although we may have difficulty in accepting them). Our subjective truth can be wrong, our misconception of the actual facts, held in good faith, and justified by our incomplete comprehension of reality (like believing the Earth was flat, or that a monster wolf had taken a bite out of the sun). Our subjective truth satisfies our curiosity, calms or fears, and allows us to take another step, albeit in the wrong direction, at any particular point in our development.

So there is absolute reality in which truth equals fact but knowledge simply doesn't exist (unless you believe in some form of cosmic conciousness). Then there is our subjective reality, a mental model of the real thing based on our perceptions, knowledge, and coloured by our beliefs in which our perceived truth is very much on shakey foundations.

Being human I can believe truth, but I cannot know truth with any degree of certainty. It lacks the required justification. Back to Socrates and Glaucon in that cave!

Facts cannot be wrong... unless so stated.
The "truth" of the matter is we don't know positively what the "facts" are.
I have opinions I see as truth and even fact... even science cannot prove it's facts or truths.. just what is "believed" to be accurate.
All the fancy phrasing and such still is just educated guesses...
2+2=4 only because someone says so.. not because it really IS. 

I'll be back.

Returning to your example of the planet:

The reality is that lump of rock floating around in space. It has certain attributes, mass, density, size, which we invent to conceptualise and categorise. We can call these facts based on our definition of of mass, density, size. If we change our definitions then we have different facts. The facts are still the facts and it does not effect the reality of the planet.

If, on the other hand, we discover that we measured something incorrectly we update our facts. But the previous fact was incorrect, it wasn't a fact afterall, it was an error. The error was not the objective truth. Our justification for our previous belief has gone with our understanding of the inaccuracy, to be replaced with a new belief and valid justification giving us new knowledge.

Our model of our world is ever changing, isn't life interesting!

"2+2=4 only because someone says so.. not because it really IS. "

I have to disagree here. You can call numbers by different names if you wish, but the concept doesn't change. If it did, we couldn't build skyscrapers or bridges or tunnels, or even roads or houses.

Brown is brown because we say it's brown. It would still look the same if we called it green.

Interesting point, does this mean that by conceptualising we create outside reality I wonder? We can all touch a rock (or we could if we were in the same place) but we can't touch a concept. However we can all share that concept, grasp that concept, understand it. But to do that we need some commonality, common language, common values, and in the case of 2+2=4 a common number base.

I suppose to be complete we should consider that frequently forgotton aspect which is right under our noses all the time, opinion. We always seem to have one! I wonder how that fits in.

Colors are not seen the same by all and sometimes, what some see as blue, one person doesn't... and we have color blind people who don't see those colors the same way at all.
Some people see letters and words backwards.

Do you suppose facts would be different if some of those who don't see it all as the rest... did the facts?
As is, people tend to want to train the odd ones out to be like the rest.. to see things the same way.
2+2.... it is 4. What if someone else had made a system before that one came along? Or what if someone has a different system that works for him/her?

Fact or truth? That's where we began. 
We recite facts about things we learn.
I just always saw truth based on a more personal level and seen differently by many... adult vs. child, my side vs. yours, etc... and it was a truth based on one person's feelings, beliefs or thoughts.. not a fact the same for all.
I need to regroup and figure out how I want to word this. 

If you have two stones in one hand, and two stones in the other hand, you have a total of four stones. It doesn't matter what you call the stones, and it doesn't matter what names you give to the numbers. The result is the same.

Another example: Water boils at 212 degrees Fahrenheit, or 100 degrees Celsius. Two different scales, but the same result. Water boils when it is heated to a specific point; regardless of what you label it, that point doesn't change.

There are some things that can change, depending on how we think of them. Our thoughts, emotions, feelings. The way we see things can change. The way things are can not.

I'm afraid I'm one of those people who don't see the same colours as others, I make allowances! So lets take that as an example:

Grass is generally green, thats a FACT, it emits a certain wavelength of light corresponding to what we (shared definition) collectively accept as being green, its absolute TRUTH. We can compare it with other green things which we perceive, but thats our own perception, our relative truth, the shadow on the cave wall. We both see "green" but your green is very different to my green. We are both telling the truth when we say we see green, but its our own relative truths, and we are seeing different things. If we both took the Ishihara test we would get very different results. So I'm agreeing with you in as far as relative truth is concerned, it is a personal thing.

If you want a bit of fun Google "Ishihara test", its mainly a load of dots to me, and thats the truth. I suspect you may see a load of numbers!

Interesting point about seeing words backwards, is it related to colour blindness I wonder? I'm ambidextrous and the orientation of words makes little difference, even to the extent of upside down, and back to front. Never hold a confidential text up to the light in front of me, I'll read it through the paper, or make notes while sitting opposite me, upside down is childs play. I do have terrible trouble with right and left though, anyway I digress (as usual).

I recently watched a movie where a guy kept holding up four fingers and asking everyone how many they saw. Four was a wrong answer. One person finally said eight and made the asker quite happy.  When looked at in a certain way, it was seen differently. 
Double vision?

How did he know they all had two eyes?

P, did anyone say anything about two eyes? lol

Facts and truth.. I have to ask.. Of everything we know to be our own personal truths.. what will you never let go of believing in, no matter how much someone tells you it is not so?

FRIENDS!

and (((hugs)))

Things I believe in and are a right fit for me... I can't change.
Love has no limits or boundaries and unconditional love exists outside the parent/child relationship... just cuz you can't live with the way someone is, doesn't mean you don't love the person, unconditionally.

I thought this was appropriate for the topic...

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Good one, Tater!

Thanks Breezey! I immediately thought of this thread when I read the third panel, where Bucky says "The truth is more important than facts, Sir...", and Satchel asks, "So is that whole in my wall truth or fact?"

LOL So, which one IS it?
The truth of the matter is... it's a fact!?
Or fact is... it's the truth!?

The fact is, there's a hole in the wall, and that's the truth!

Breezey Breezey wrote:I recently watched a movie where a guy kept holding up four fingers and asking everyone how many they saw. Four was a wrong answer. One person finally said eight and made the asker quite happy.  When looked at in a certain way, it was seen differently. 
Double vision?

Truth: you perceive 4 fingers. BUT fact, you see the 4 fingers in each eye, total 8!

Tater Salad wrote:The fact is, there's a hole in the wall, and that's the truth!

Fact: the whole of the wall is mainly hole when you consider the distance between the atoms and sub atomic particles. It's not generally the way you see the wall, ain't that the truth!